Leading Notes Podcast

12. The opera singer who chose community over Carnegie Hall: The singing for health revolution, led by Liz Lecoanet

This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals.
Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening.
This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change.
Topics Discussed
The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicine
Prescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health intervention
Creating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"
The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" culture
Opera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presence
Embodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for others
Medical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experience
The social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementary
Indigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression
Notable Quotes
"I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being."
"Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing."
"You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing."
"The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen."
"When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise."
"These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?"
"We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up."
"Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something."
About Liz
Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings.
Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing.
Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice.
Connect with Liz
https://lizlecoanet.com/
Episode Highlights
[00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation
[00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes
[00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism
[00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life
[00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof
[00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion
[00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all
Call to Action
If you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider:
Finding or starting a community singing group in your area
Supporting the social prescribing movement in Australia
Sharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakers
Remembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singer
Join the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.

11. Community music in the academy—an unholy alliance? with Dr Francis Yapp

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.
Key Topics Discussed
Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches
Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator
The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme
Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach
The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings
Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music
Māori terms used in this episode:
Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity
Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting
Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place
Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures
Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction
Te Reo Māori - The Māori language
Connect with Guest
University of Canterbury School of Music
Connect with Francis on LinkedIn
Listen to Salve Regina

10. Creative compassionate disruption through music with Phoene Cave

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable.
From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care.
Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout.
Key Topics Discussed
Singing for Lung Health Training
How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)
The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemic
Training over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapists
The importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issues
Music Therapy vs Community Music
The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musician
How both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awareness
The power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiences
Creative Health Training for Healthcare Workers
Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton University
The overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeing
Teaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and music
How creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the box
Supervision and Reflective Practice
Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settings
The difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musicians
Compassion fatigue and the importance of boundaries
Values and Approach
Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any group
The importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degrees
Creative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophy
Working in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focused
Personal Journey
Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalist
Multiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspective
The transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voice
Discovering neurodivergence later in life
About Guest
Phoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison.
Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing.
Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist.
Connect with Guest
Website: www.phoenecave.co.uk
The Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/
Episode Highlights
[00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally
[00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it
[00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration
[00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients
[00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity
[00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care
[00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians
[00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries
[00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album)
[00:49:50] - Advice to her 18-year-old self: "You have ADHD, and you're actually fine"

9. Making music that matters: The book! Solo episode

In this special solo episode, Melissa announces the publication of her new book, "Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health". She explores how musicians can address the crisis of social connection through community music-making, offering evidence-based frameworks for building meaningful careers whilst fostering social health and wellbeing.
"This book is my attempt to bridge two realities—to show that there's a way to have a fulfilling, sustainable career in music whilst also addressing one of the most pressing challenges of our time: the loss of human connection."
Endorsements
Professor Kim S. Cameron (University of Michigan)"This wonderfully creative book shows how music transforms lives, teams, organizations, and society."
Dr Dave Camlin (Trinity Laban, UK)"An essential read for emerging music leaders to help make sense of the complex and exciting traditions of socially transformational music making."
Professor Alexandra Lamont (University of Queensland)"Well-researched and theoretically-grounded ... explores the less-well studied worlds of those who lead and facilitate democratic participatory music making."
Book Details
Title: Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social HealthAuthor: Melissa ForbesPublisher: RoutledgePublication Date: 22 October 2025
ISBN Information:
Paperback: 9781032730660
Hardback: 9781032724157
eBook: 9781003426509

8. Singing as collective care: Trauma-informed choral leadership with Joanna Brooke

Singing as Collective Care: Trauma-Informed Choral Leadership with Joanna Brooke
In this episode, Melissa speaks with choral conductor and soprano Joanna Brooke about her unique approach to music-making that sits at the intersection of musical excellence and trauma-informed care. Joanna shares how she creates spaces where people can reconnect with their birthright to sing, moving beyond Western cultural barriers of musical elitism to foster genuine human connection through voice.
Drawing on her background in social work and over 10 years of choral conducting experience, Joanna discusses her innovative practice of reclaiming improvisation, shifting from production-focused to expression-centered music-making, and developing what she calls "singing as collective care" - the focus of her new PhD at the University of Melbourne.
Key Topics Discussed
Confronting Musical Elitism
How Western contexts create feelings of unworthiness around singing
The concept of singing as a birthright versus attachment to skill and ability
Creating spaces for people to shed learned limitations and reconnect with organic vocal expression
Trauma-Informed Musical Practice
Setting up spaces with trauma-informed principles without pathologizing the experience
The importance of choice, safety, and never requiring solo participation
Viewing disconnection from singing as trauma work requiring restoration
Reclaiming Improvisation
Moving beyond jazz and classical virtuosity concepts to experimental, free-form singing
Using musical motifs and compositional structures as containers for safe exploration
The role of power-sharing and authentic participation by musical leaders
From Production to Expression
Shifting focus from audience-oriented outcomes to present-moment experience
Balancing expression-centered goals with aesthetically pleasing results
The trauma-informed importance of ensuring beautiful collective sound
Feminine Leadership in Music
Challenging masculine conducting stereotypes of control and certainty
Exploring communal, open, fluid, and emotional leadership approaches
The gendered aspects of musical leadership and ethics of care
Arts and Health Integration
Bridging the gap between artistic practice and therapeutic outcomes
The distinction between art-making and therapy while acknowledging therapeutic benefits
Creating dialogue between arts and health practitioners
About Joanna
Joanna Brooke is a choral conductor and soprano based in Melbourne with over 10 years of experience leading choirs. She currently serves as musical director of the Monash University Choral Society and has worked as artistic director of the Jubilate Singers and with Gondwana Choirs.
With training in social work, Joanna's unique practice sits at the intersection of music and trauma-informed care. She leads research into trauma-informed creative arts interventions and presents at arts health conferences and events. In 2025, she commenced a PhD at the University of Melbourne exploring "singing as collective care."
Connect with Joanna
Find Joanna on LinkedIn

7. Making loud mistakes: The serious business of play in community music with Jane York

Jane York shares her insights on the importance of community music-making, creating safe and playful spaces for singers, and how language choices can either include or exclude participants. She discusses her approach to leading community singing groups, including her "show and tell" performance model that creates a more comfortable alternative to traditional concert performances.
Topics Discussed
- The importance of community in our individualistic society- How community music provides connection across social barriers- Creating safe, playful environments for amateur musicians- The role of vulnerability and authenticity in music leadership- Depressurising the musical experience through humour and self-deprecation- Language choices that promote inclusivity in community music settings- Alternative performance models that prioritise connection over perfection- The transformative power of singing together
Notable Quotes
- "Please make some loud mistakes, you know, because that's how we learn, and that's how we, you know, improve. So it's a constant reiteration of this is a safe place to just be learning and not perfect yet, and we only learn through being bad at something multiple times. And then we improve." - Jane York- "The way the voice, the sound, changes, the strength, the vulnerability depending on our lived experiences, depending on what we're going through - it is really beautiful." - Jane York- "I'm not very interested in that old fashioned dynamic of expert and the students. I hope that my groups feel like we're just on a journey together." - Jane York- "I love music, and that's the impression I want to leave - just my deep love of the music that I'm teaching them, and my love of singing as opposed to my expertise at singing." - Jane York
About Jane York
Jane York is the founder of several community music initiatives including contemporary community choir Just Holla, workshop project Big Feminist Sing, and the ukulele group Strumming Singers. Her music leadership roles span universities, health and arts organisations, and community centres. Jane is also a regular guest conductor for many choirs, an experienced festival choir leader, and workshop facilitator. During Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, she led online lunchtime live sing-alongs, maintaining musical community when people needed it most. Jane can often be found leading singing at protests and fundraisers, using music as a tool for social change and community building.
Connect with Jane
- Jane on LinkedIn 

6. From wrong to strong: Positive psychology and character strengths for musicians with Raina Murnak

From wrong to strong: Positive psychology and character strengths for musicians
Both positive psychology and music leadership focus on human potential and growth. While traditional psychology often focuses on fixing what's wrong, positive psychology emphasizes developing what's strong - a principle that aligns perfectly with effective music leadership. Understanding our character strengths helps us lead authentically, create psychologically safe spaces for music making, and guide others toward meaningful musical experiences.
In this episode, Dr. Raina Murnak explores how positive psychology's emphasis on character strengths can transform music education and leadership. Whether leading a classroom, choir, or ensemble, knowing your strengths signature helps you lead from a place of authenticity rather than trying to emulate others.
Key Topics
What is positive psychology, and how does it differ from "toxic positivity"?
Character strengths assessment and development
Breaking free from the performer/teacher binary in music careers
The importance of authenticity in teaching and performance
Challenging traditional approaches to music education
Notable Quotes
"Nothing leads with its worst part and becomes something that we love. But music training ends up being that way."
"Every moment that I perceived as a failure or something I wasn't really great at doing is because I was violating my own principles."
"When you are really in flow with yourself, great things happen."
Resources Mentioned
VIA Character Strengths Survey
"Positive Psychology for Music Professionals: Character Strengths" by Raina Murnak and Nancy Kirsner (Routledge)
Dr Rick Hanson's HEAL method for hardwiring positivity: Have the experience, Enrich it, Absorb it, Link it
About Dr. Raina Murnak
Assistant Professor and Director of Contemporary Voice and Performance Artistry at the University of Miami's Frost School of Music. With over 20 years of collegiate music teaching experience, Dr. Murnak has developed innovative approaches to music education combining positive psychology with practical industry skills.
Follow Raina on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/rainasiforbeauty/
Raina's website
Episode Highlights
The importance of understanding and working with your character strengths
How positive psychology can transform music educationBreaking down traditional barriers in music theory teaching
The value of authenticity in musical expression
Expanding career possibilities for musicians beyond performing and teaching
Connect with Melissa Forbes on LinkedIn Join the conversation about positive music leadership and community music making and share your thoughts about this episode using #LeadingNotes
Leading Notes is a podcast exploring innovative approaches to music leadership and education. Find more episodes at https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/
This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au

5. Singing through burnout: Balancing giving and receiving in community music with Melissa Gill

In this powerful episode of Leading Notes, we speak with Melissa Gill, former program leader of the Absolutely Everybody Choir, about the transformative power of singing for mental health and wellbeing. Drawing from her unique background in both music and human resources, Melissa shares how she created safe spaces for people experiencing mental health challenges to rediscover their voices – literally and metaphorically.
With remarkable candor, Melissa discusses the delicate balance between maintaining professional boundaries and creating genuine human connections in wellbeing-focused choirs. She opens up about her own journey with burnout and the importance of self-care in this emotionally demanding work. Through stories of transformation and resilience, Melissa reveals how group singing can help people rebuild confidence, form meaningful relationships, and step back into their lives.
Join us for an honest conversation about the challenges and profound rewards of using music to create positive change in people's lives, and learn why Melissa describes this as "the best and most important work" of her life.
Melissa G is a busy lady, and you may hear her phone notifications vibrating during some of this conversation - but what she was saying at the same time was too good to edit most the notifications out!
Upbeat Arts
Sing Sing Sing Dementia Choir